Christa 0:00
Hi guys today I'm incredibly excited to introduce to you someone who embodies the essence of Holistic Health Care Caleb Greer. His journey in the field of healthcare began at Parker University, where he began studying clinical neuroscience and functional medicine. He then had an internship at Carrick Brain Centers where he worked closely with veterans suffering from TBI and PTSD. After their he earned his nursing degree and later a master's degree and is now a nurse practitioner. Caleb spent some time at revive treatment centers in Denver, Colorado, where he learned advanced therapies to treat various neurological conditions. He then moved to Austin, Texas, where he collaborated with a physician who treated pain management and regenerative medicine. So what really sets Caleb apart is not just his clinical expertise, but also his commitment to continuous learning, and a passion for genuine patient care. You are in for a real treat today, as you hear some of Caleb's insights, and his extend to experience just some of his deep knowledge around brain neuro chemistry. Let's get started.
Sheree 1:08
Well, we are super excited to have Caleb here today. And I know you are just a wealth of knowledge when it comes to all things brain health, something I absolutely love geeking out on. So I'm really excited for all the gyms that you have to share today. And our listeners are huge fans of how to learn how to optimize their brain health better ways to focus be more productive. So I'm wondering if you can share, Caleb, can we chat around nootropics? And what they are, what they do what your favorite ones are? Can we start there, please?
Speaker 1 1:40
Sure. So kind of when I think about nootropics, and I guess just supporting different domains of cognitive function, I like to kind of funnel it into kind of what the client or the patient or whoever is asking you for a nootropic? Like, what is their desire? Like? What do they want to improve? Is it focus? Is it attention? Is it kind of getting in that flow state is it you know, improving restlessness, or decreasing anxiety, there's a whole SKU of kind of domains that people can start to want to, you know, treat, quote, unquote. And so that's really where the conversation starts. So no tropics is this kind of broad category of mind turning tools to allow for either different states of consciousness or to elevate attention in different resources to promote focus and memory, and all the different things that come with, you know, cognitive function. So for me, delineating what path someone is on, kind of narrows the window, what to use to basically enhance that particular lens. So kind of turning it back on you are there particular categories of cognitive function that you would like to talk about first, in relation to a no trophy that might help in that function.
Sheree 2:52
I really liked that you mentioned flow state, I think that's something that a lot of us can struggle to really tap into, we can jump around brain super busy mind super wide. And so when you really get into flow, it feels incredible, but what would be your recommendations to support
Speaker 1 3:07
that? Yeah, so that's gonna be kind of a fine dance between really attuning attention and focus on to a particular task. And so this is kind of where it gets muddy, because, you know, you can introduce substances that will increase norepinephrine and dopamine and the things that you want for attention and focus. But it can also get to the point where it scatters the mind and disorganize, this thought to where you actually get out of flow. So there's this inverted U shaped curve with pretty much all the nootropics that will enhance attention and memory and focus to where if you're too little, you're going to suffer, if it's too much, you're going to suffer. So finding that balance is really where the dance of a nootropic stack for the individual comes into play. So you know, for flow, I really like to kind of balance balance out adaptogens first kind of get ashwagandha rhodiola, holy basil, things that really tonically allow for the brain to just kind of be in a mellow space and rise to the occasion if need be, or reduce the stressors that are coming in and still focus in spite of those ginseng that that class of Siberian and you know, all the different classes of those ginsenosides can also help with that, you know, adaptive stress response. And then stacking on top of that something like a caffeine or nicotine or Modafinil, or some of those kind of gentle stimulants that will promote norepinephrine released in the frontal cortex along with dopamine to help the motivation to stay there. And then acetylcholine boosters like Alpha GPC or the Raza tam class to kind of level in the layer of cholinergic stimulus to yoke that memory in the short term and working memory space. Where
Sheree 4:53
do we even begin and so if someone's going, Okay, this is like a lot of information would you pick one from each of those categories? or what you like, just kind of start playing around and seeing what works for you. Definitely.
Speaker 1 5:05
So in that kind of depends on the endo phenotype of the individual. So if they're coming to me with anxiety that, hey, I know what flow feels like. But here's what prevents me from getting into it. I'm thinking about all these other things, I'm kind of scattered, I can't focus, again, my go to kind of foundational support would be the adaptogens. Just to kind of clear the mess away from external stress and thought processes. The other aspect of that is making sure that sleep is controlled and actually benefiting cognitive function for the following day of work. So making sure that someone's lifestyle is also not interfering with their ability to concentrate and focus and so forth, is part of the nootropic stack, even though it's not a supplement or nutraceutical tool, utilized, per se,
Christa 5:50
kind of a blend. I like that.
Speaker 1 5:52
Yeah, so kind of making sure how and everything from the externalities are controlled somewhat to it to a degree of at least knowing what the variables are and what the inputs are. And then again, allowing the person to guide the clinician by saying, Hey, here's the problem areas, how can we reduce activity in these funnels? And how can we improve activity and the other funnels and level out to to kind of achieve more of that steady state flow?
Christa 6:21
Yeah, I love that. Do you find that these nootropics come in like combinations? A lot of times I mean, or do you do you recommend just kind of piecemealing it and kind of doing individual nootropics. And combining them that way,
Speaker 1 6:33
I like to use kind of specified ingredients, especially ones that have kind of trademarked extract percentages, because you get really mega dose or high dose and make sure you get the benefit. And you can see how that physiologically affects somebody. And then if it's too much or too little, you can tweak or pull it out or use a different one that has maybe similar characteristics, but not the same profile completely. Right. So someone that needs an adaptogen was to take rhodiola, for example. You know, there's row seven bland, heavy, rhodiola extracts that are more for relaxation. And then you have the soldier side heavy rowset or Rhodiola extracts that are more stimulant based, it's not going to be that huge of a difference between the two. But for someone that has more of an anxious presentation, versus someone who has more of a lackadaisical presentation, would be benefiting from either of those supplementation parameters based on what they're presenting with.
Christa 7:36
That's kind of how I feel about a multivitamin, too. I mean, oftentimes, a multivitamin just has a lot, a little of a lot of things. I find that most people need not everything in there, but they need a bolus of let's say, B vitamins or zinc that's not necessarily present there. So yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1 7:54
so for foundational support, like, you know, for me, I like everyone to be kind of on a comprehensive greens type of powder. As as a multivitamin, you're going to get antioxidants and minerals and vitamins and trace elements and things like that just to kind of cover bases, as well as us kind of an essential amino acid product to make sure that the building blocks for the neurotransmitters within neuropeptides are also they're at a baseline to contribute to their neurological function that we're then asking from a product like a nootropic to demand work be done on the actual system. So if you play the castle, and there's no gas, no, what are we doing?
Christa 8:34
Yeah. What are your thoughts on when describing that? What I take is body health greens, do you like them?
Speaker 1 8:40
Well, I use body health perfect aminos for for a greens powder. We use numedica as premium greens or power greens.
Christa 8:48
No matter. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, shifting a little bit most high achievers, you know, they're constantly striving for that next big thing. And they're also really hard on themselves, which often can lead to different patterns of thinking that can maybe contribute to anxiety, depression. I know in your practice, you use ketamine therapy for patients. So can you kind of introduce us to that and teach us a little bit about how ketamine works on the brain? I know that's a very large question. But yeah, kind of starting there, like what ketamine is and how it how it works with the brain.
Speaker 1 9:24
Yeah, it's actually a super broad compound. And, you know, I guess Chemically speaking, the most familiar mechanism of action is as a NMDA antagonist. So one of the primary glutamatergic receptors in the brain in terms of long term memory and being a electrically sensitive channel. So there's two main glutamatergic receptors, right the AMPA the MPA and the NMDA receptors. The NMDA receptors only really get opened up if the charge on that neuron has has been depolarize to a degree to allow for more opening in the NMDA channels to actually access. So they're kind of a second step in the learning and memory and attentional process. But ketamine blocks the NMDA receptor to a large degree, depending on dose and the saturation of the chemical in the brain. But that's only one real mechanism that it hits. And there's, there's so many more that can kind of get extracted from just that basic science approach. You know, because clinically, there's so much more from a phenomenological perspective, it affects the epigenetics of the DNA in the brain, it also impacts a lot of different systems that are more core to the brainstem and the generation of an effect and feeling that can be taken advantage of, in the appropriate context when using a substance like ketamine.
Christa 11:00
Yeah, so were in terms of anxiety, depression, let's say, or, you know, in terms of high achievers is that most of our listeners that are just kind of always striving for the thing, how can this be beneficial to their brain to kind of help them achieve goals without the same patterning.
Speaker 1 11:18
So a lot of that, especially for high achievers will come in the aspect of using a tool like ketamine to allow for somewhat of a slight dissociation from self critique and self criticism to almost kind of give a split between the the peace of your mind that tells you all of the here and now awareness, right for your ego, essentially, like this is who I am, these are my ideas, these are my behaviors, this is how things are done the kind of default mode. And so when everything is introduced the system, there's kind of a break in that default mode mechanism. And you can be almost mindlessly allowed to but it's permissive to engage in new thoughts and new ideas and new patterns without the judgment of your self kind of criticizing things that might not be fully formed or have the ability to be formed because you're too early to critique and actually not allow them to grow. So it's a great brainstorming tool. And it can help open up possibilities potentials that might not have been seen. But it also requires someone to help navigate and guide that space. Because, you know, you can get a little bit squirrely here as far as attention and capacity to kind of stay on task. So heading into a session using ketamine, especially for performance enhancement requires setting intention and journaling about what you kind of want to see different and kind of idealized what a potential future would be in the context of whatever you're trying to kind of figure out and then go into it and say here, I'm open to this, this is what I want to get to, what are some of the things that I'm getting in the way personally of achieving that goal? Are there are different behaviors that are inconsistent with my aforementioned goal? Right? Am I doing things on a behavioral perspective, that are actually interfering with my progress towards what I explicitly say I want to do
Christa 13:14
I hear people go ahead. Well, I was gonna ask, I hear people say this about psilocybin two is a very similar in the I know what those two like, you know, doing plant medicine kind of differs. But is it two paths to the same results do you find
Speaker 1 13:30
not necessarily so with psilocybin in the classical psychedelics kind of bending more on the five HTT to a receptor pathway, and having more of a kind of transcendent experience with with with nature and kind of connectedness and belonging, there's a different phenomenology that happens with psilocybin them with ketamine, especially when you're doing lower doses just going to facilitate a little bit of ego dissolution, to help the narrative visor reconstruct how you think about something with the ketamine in particular, if you're using that at a low dose to facilitate change, you have a conversational ability to actually walk through it with someone you can still write, you can still journal and have more of a dialogue versus, you know, I guess in the micro dosing side of psilocybin, you could have that arrangement with but there's inconsistency as far as how much psilocybin you're actually getting within a certain product or if it's going to be reliable for you know, if you can repeat the experience, it was something synthetic, like ketamine, it might be easier to facilitate that goal, rather than use something a little bit more wild. Like, like the appointment.
Sheree 14:38
Yeah. So it sounds like what we're really using it for is rewiring the neural pathways in the brain, right and doing it at a low enough dose to allow us to feel really safe. It feels like for some of our listeners, even the idea of ketamine right now or we're talking about psilocybin or even I know MDMA is used a little bit for rewiring and reprogramming the brain Are you able to touch a little bit on the safety of using this and, and kind of how you'd facilitate someone through it because I think sometimes even just the conversation of opening up talking about the the label of it being a drug, even can, can really put people off. And who knows, and people have had, like, either they've had bad experiences, or maybe we're programmed to think that any kind of drag is really bad for us. And I definitely don't sit in that camp, I've learnt the complete opposite through through trial and error and experience and that sort of thing. So it's an a really incredible conversation I think we're having right now. And for those people listening that might have a bit of fear around it. What would you say to them? And how did you found to talk through that little bit?
Speaker 1 15:40
Yeah, well, I mean, I think, you know, Carl Jung said it best, you know, unearned wisdom is something to be taking pause for. So when it comes to the safety, obviously, this is setting the container of a medical practice, at least for me, personally, I'm advising someone do this, it's not a willy nilly go out and find somebody that can provide you some ketamine and go on a trip. Yes, let's say the experiences with direction and intention and goal setting. So it's done in the office setting, like we usually do it via IV. And so we have a very strict container around what to expect and how to facilitate change. And that dosing can be very minute ly focused on how the person is actually feeling that experience. So when it comes to safety overall, I mean, I would say it depends on where you're at in the container, in terms of where you're getting that therapy from. Because on one hand, it is a potential anesthetic drug, if you go high enough dose, you can lose consciousness, it's safe in the perspective that it's not a cardio respiratory depressant. So it will keep your heart rate up, it'll keep your breathing rate up, you're not going to go into a state of you know, opioid crisis, or you know, overdosing in that sense of the term. But that being said, it can be a very frightening experience to lose control of your body and of your mind, and be in a dissociated space from the ego that kind of grounds you enter this physical reality. So it's not something to say that you shouldn't be afraid of, maybe it should give you some relative anxiety to go into something that is uncertain. But you should have someone that can talk you through all of those potential fears and anxieties and say, Hey, this is a real thing that you should worry about, this is not a thing that you should worried about. This is something you could be worried about if you didn't have me to facilitate this process. But in this container, we are safe, because we have XY and Z laid out what
Christa 17:36
does a session with you kind of look like? What like, walk us through what, like tired walk in there? And do it? What is the typical steps that you do with a patient? What is it? Yeah, what
Speaker 1 17:48
does that mean? Are we have two different kinds of programs. So one is for mental health and kind of Reynier devising past trauma structuring how you want your ideal future to be from an effective perspective, like kind of getting feelings in order and figuring out, you know, what ways are my transgenerational or early life events and significant behaviors impacting my hearing now, so we can use ketamine in that sense to kind of break up some of those bold patterns, values, beliefs, behaviors, and move through them. So that mental health Avenue requires a homework to be done, which is Jordan Peterson's past authoring exercise, so we have every client work through their past and kind of lay out somewhat of an autobiography of where they were and how they got to where they are now. So it's relevant for me because when we're sitting in on a session, I have, you know, story that can be effectively Vaillant or relevant to them that I can use to evoke emotionality or evoke some kind of feeling state that might be, you know, either in the way of or complimentary to their healing. So everyone does that exercise. They also have a requirement to do a few Somatic Experiencing therapy sessions with one of our providers. And they kind of graduate to the ability to then utilize everything they've learned about themselves in that process, under a guided ketamine infusion, which may be you know, 123 or four sessions down the road, to basically you know, integrate and experience all those things and make a change that is actually able to go back into reality and be different.
Christa 19:40
Okay, so people don't just walk in and do it. It's kind of a process to warm them up to it and you understand what they're working through and all of these things, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1 19:50
it's not a hey, I want to do ketamine come in. No. And on the performance aspect, you know, people that want to No, there's not a emotional history, there's not a, you know, dysfunction in their aspect of regulation, even though there might be a little bit, but it's not their primary concern, right? These are people that are high performers, they want to get kind of out of their own mind, in terms of what's holding them back. They've been doing things for so long, it's really been successful, but they reach a plateau, or there's something they need to get over. And sometimes in those cases, we can use ketamine, again, with intention and goal setting behind it with journaling and figuring out, okay, what is it that you actually want to change? What are you open to changing about yourself and about your environment that we can help facilitate with a substance. And so in that context, it would look like, again, doing somewhat of a journaling exercise to figure out exactly what it is they would want to change what their current values, perceptions, ideals and beliefs are, with with where they are in life. And then in the same scenario, using the IV to create a container in a space to allow the exploration of those concepts for themselves.
Christa 21:12
So the concept of this, I mean, it's pretty well known, I feel like it's, you know, my nice, one of my family members has used it, and and it's made a big shift in her life as well. She raves about it. There's online programs also. So do you find it safe for people to I mean, I'm assuming these online, you take something orally, and then you're on a call with somebody, I'm assuming that's how that works? Is that something you recommend for people? Or do you recommend most people going in person for something like this,
Speaker 1 21:42
I definitely recommend someone going in person. I mean, I think the the utility of someone's in a crisis, and they don't have access to a place that they can go in person, or they don't have the financial resources to go and find a place to do it in person as an IV or, or an intramuscular shot or something in that container, then, you know, you have to work with what you've got. And so if someone has availability to have an online program where somebody gets delivered to their door, and they can do a program like mine, bloomers, something of the like, that it's processed in a way that seems somewhat, you know, safely from the outside perspective, then, you know, more power to them. I think from an ideal perspective, it would be done in the clinic with someone who has experience utilizing these therapies for someone's benefit. That way, you have an actual person there to navigate into feel through and support through a very, what can be difficult journey.
Christa 22:44
Yeah, so we've talked, you know, you've you've mentioned, like, you know, the end result is kind of a positive effect, right, you're moving towards something greater? My, one of my questions, and you know, it's just interesting, relationship wise, or even job wise, have you found that, on the other side of it, people kind of end up blowing up the life that they had created, because they're like, forget it, I don't want this relationship. I don't want this job. Like I've been operating out of a different a lower, let's say, version of myself. And when you step into a higher version of yourself, have you found that some people look around and they're like, hold up, this is not even, you know, I want to create a different reality. Yeah,
Speaker 1 23:24
so there can definitely be an identification of friction that they've created in their own lives as a result of kind of opening their eyes and getting awake, for lack of a better word. But that's also something in pre consultation that we're looking at in terms of the probability of happening. So if someone is super successful, but they don't like their job, or they made a sacrifice to become, you know, a physician or a lawyer, and they didn't have time for their kids, or they have regrets, that will absolutely come up. But it's also coming to terms with freewill, responsibility. There's a lot of topics that get enveloped in that conversation to basically help someone understand that where they're at is where they're at. There's nothing that can be done to reverse what they have done. And to radically accept their position and remove the shame, guilt, fault, regret, and just accept that I did what I could do with the information I had at the time, and the best decision was made to move forward. And that acceptance is a real big piece of it. Now, if someone gets the end of it, like, Okay, I need to quit my job, or I need to leave this partner or something else, then that's a good revelation to have and with a person to help navigate them through that process. It's not as dangerous, right? So if someone just had that revelation at an Iowa Oscar ceremony in Peru or something, and they come back and they're like, they're gonna blow up their life, or they don't have the resources to actually do what the call has told them to do. And then they're going to be even more discordance because they know what they should do, but they can't do it. And so they're stuck. So there has to be as we're landing in all of these circumstances, with plant medicine, with ketamine with whatever it's going to be, in order to actually call this a therapeutic endeavor. Yeah,
Christa 25:20
I mean, being responsible with the outcome. Right. I think that's another reason why doing this with a clinical person who understands this process and an individualized process. And it's not just a one time kind of thing is super important when you're stepping into and exploring these kinds of options.
Sheree 25:40
And it's therapy, like you say, like, it's ketamine therapy. So you've got the beautiful somatic experiences that you have that you sound like you guide people through initially, there is that intention setting, with journaling, you're bringing so much self awareness to the person and what's going on in their lives where they want to be focused to whether it is performance, whether it's past trauma healing, then you're taking them in through this actual therapeutic level of healing with the assistance of the ketamine to help them through, navigate through so that they're able to get those higher callings, they're able to tap into their intuition a lot better, they're able to, like you say, dissolve the ego a little bit, and actually operate from that place and make an empowered decision, which I think, really, if you're wanting to fast track where you are, especially as a high performer, it can be one of the most incredible tools. So I'd love to know what some of the, I guess some of the most positive things you've seen come from this. And then on the backside of that if someone's not really ready to dive into the ketamine therapy side of things, what else do you recommend for people to to be able to get into that space? Obviously, we've got the journaling, can you touch on some of the somatic therapies, maybe you use, and just go into that?
Speaker 1 26:56
Sure. So I wanted to actually that was a beautiful recapitulation of the whole thing. And then the last point of ego dissolution, I think one point I definitely want to drive home is that the point is not to be at arms with ego, it's to identify a greater sense of self, that is more actually aligned with who the person truly is, without the social constructs and the beliefs and behaviors that were placed on them, as you know, children or adolescents tend to become kind of more free to become the actual self that they would choose to be if they had a choice. Yeah. And then I apologize, but can you re ask your question? No,
Sheree 27:43
that's fine. That was beautiful. And I love that you drove that home? So the first part of the question was some of the real positives that you've seen come out of people doing, like ketamine therapy? And then the second part of the question was, if people don't feel like they're quite ready, what are some of the other ways that you use therapeutic tools like somatic work to support people?
Speaker 1 28:03
Gotcha. Yeah, so I mean, the most positive outcomes are truly just 180 degree turns in someone's life in terms of people feeling lost people feeling like they don't have purpose, or that their mission has failed, or big existential crises like like those, just put in context and radical acceptance of what is and what has been a kind of putting that aside and really adopting a growth mindset of what is to come. That that is the biggest mind expanding, and performance enhancing tool that I think is a benefit that comes from, you know, the appropriate use of an integrated ketamine experience. And I guess on the second part of that, so if someone's not ready for something like like ketamine, again, any tool that improves the locus of self and the identification of kind of what power you have within is is kind of what we latch on to. So in terms of helping people identify, what is their personal value, mission, purpose goals, like all those things that are really difficult to write down and put on paper because people will say, you know, I value friends, I value family, I value God I value X, Y, and Z. Okay, you say that? How do you value those things? Write out a list. So really identifying from the abstract and pulling in more concrete examples of what people say. And then contrast that with how they behave and say, look, here's what you're doing in the world. Here's how you perceive you should be in the world. How do those jive and how are they discord and you just start to pick those apart and then people will generally start to realize I'm in my own way, how do I get out of my own way. And so through talk therapy through all these different methods of somatic experiencing, and the different tools, even even exercise and calisthenics, and getting more involved with your body and kind of owning your own movements and joints, and everything is it has such a huge impact on responsibility for your vessel. That can all be done without the use of external substances.
Christa 30:34
I think some of my most aha moments are with workouts just like being being in the flow of whatever, of a hard workout. In fact, I was able to tap into my core values a bit more clearly, during the workout, like because it was on my mind ahead of time. And then yeah, doing some of that physical movement and getting a little bit of that deeper insight. through physical activity, I find super helpful. What about breath work? Do you do any breath work with your clients, your patients?
Speaker 1 31:09
No, not particularly. I mean, we definitely kind of coach on the basics and fundamentals of diaphragmatic breathing from a postural perspective and a musculoskeletal perspective, but less so from a using breath to get a transformative experience or something like that. Now, obviously, with exercise, we coach on maintaining core strength and the ability to use an excursion your diaphragm to still breathe while maintaining, you know, intra abdominal pressure. Nasal Breathing, of course, for sleep and mouth taping, but in the context of normal physiological function, not not so much in terms of changing MySpace. Yeah,
Christa 31:50
okay. Yeah, I know that there's, there's that avenue as well.
Speaker 1 31:56
Or like it, I just, it's not something that we've explored. Yeah.
Christa 32:03
Well, this is all been super intro, I'm just so intrigued by I mean, the the brain has yet it's kind of the final frontier, right? Like, there's still so much that even the people who dedicate their whole life to neuroscience don't know. And so for us to just kind of peek behind a little bit of expertise around how certain you know, what's available to us, I guess, and how we can really use what's available to us to help change our life experience and help us get into the next level has been super fast. And then
Speaker 1 32:35
kind of get more of a diagnostic, look at how to maybe, just like with bloodwork, you know when we facilitate understanding of what's happening on a an organ system level, we can use neuro diagnostics, like eye movements, and cognitive domain tasks, simple attention to, you know, evoked really event related potentials, Q E, G, basic, you know, electrophysiology of the brain and kind of use those as metrics for someone's brain health, and then do an intervention like ketamine, or like therapy or whatever, or even hormone replacement with menopausal women and see the brain change as far as what its actual structure, not structure, but its its physiology. And its performance doing in response to you know, someone's interventions. And so getting a picture of neurological biomarkers that are not blood related, or chemical related or anything like that, but actual functional characteristics of the mind. We're going to start putting together correlations with personality tests and psychometric questionnaires, and then get a feedback into who is best for this kind of therapy, who would be best for this kind of note show, but who would be best for this kind of intervention. And so it's a really exciting time for neuroscience and clinical neuroscience in particular, because we can match all that fun stuff with phenomenology and philosophy and how people actually are to be in the world. And that's what design is all about.
Christa 34:11
I love that line. When I had the pleasure of visiting your amazing clinic with all the cool stuff that you haven't cited to clinic, you had like a cap. Are you using that at all for measuring anything within the brain? It's kind of like a helmet that you had
Speaker 1 34:26
the transcranial magnetic, or the EEG cap.
Christa 34:30
I'm not quite sure if it was just a cap that you had recently got, and I didn't get to experience you using it on anyone but I am curious if that's something that you use in the clinic and what what you do
Speaker 1 34:39
with it, actually, yeah, so we have a full quantitative EEG headset that we use to kind of pull data from surface electrodes to see what the electrical activity of the brain is kind of looking at, you know, theta delta alpha, beta, gamma waves that are coming from the cortex and we can use that as a guide. baseline or a tool to see kind of how someone's brain is functioning from a electrode physiological perspective, but also we have an event related potential test as well. So basically looking at how the brain responds to auditory and visual stimuli before you consciously recognize it. So it's looking at the small wave forms that happen in terms of perceiving a sound or perceiving a visual stimulus, not what you perceive, from hearing or from seeing. So that can be used to look at brain injury and just baseline cognitive function in neurological function, even though there's no injury or insult to begin with. So again, just kind of giving the brain or the mind a voice, because it's an organ that doesn't speak with pain. It doesn't speak with any issue until there's a function it's so detrimental, like memory loss or, or vocabulary, dysfunction that someone will actually say, hey, there's a problem with my brain. But that's been brewing for 20 years.
Christa 36:05
I love that to actually see the waves.
Sheree 36:10
I'm curious with how it all intertwines. I can know we talked about the nootropics at the beginning. And neurotransmitters came up a little bit. And it's something that I've only really delved into on the real surface level. But is there a way that you, you track or check to see what people are most dominant in like, whether they're more GABA, whether they're more dopamine dominant? Like, what they might lean more towards? Does the cap test any of that? Like, how can people really yeah, look into this, so they can nail the benefits. We know
Speaker 1 36:43
that the brain has the privilege Oregon, so there's not a good way to test what's going on from a neurochemical perspective in the brain. You know, there's neurotransmitter tests, you can get to the urine and kind of correlate what that might look like in the brain. But ultimately, it's totally divorced from the production in the microenvironment. And it's actually in a neurological circuit, that the best way that I've found, you know, clinically, is to have the questionnaires to kind of walk through what those systems kind of mediate. So for example, if someone's super motivated, super playful, then they're going to kind of be in that higher dopaminergic range, if they can focus and have attention. If they're squirrely anxious and have more of the ADHD kind of phenotype, they might be too high on the norepinephrine side. If they have issues learning, or if their short term memory or working memory is kind of compromised, they might be low and acetylcholine. Or if they have really great working memory, then they're going to be higher on the acetylcholine side. So questions that kind of dig at the functions of what those neurotransmitters are kind of broadly modulating is kind of the best way to get underneath the hood in terms of where they're at. But outside of that, it's it's really more of a trial and error basis on on the neurotransmitters.
Sheree 38:02
That's super interesting. Thank you for sharing on that. I find it also fascinating. Like you say, the brain we're only really just scratching the surface on like, I think of a lot of things are science really, the more we know, the more we realize we don't know
Speaker 1 38:14
what and there's so many other difficulties with even within one particular neurotransmitter system, because, you know, each one will have five to seven different receptor types and one is going to be stimulatory one is going to be inhibitory. One might be on an inhibitory neurotransmitter, or one might be on an inhibitory neuron that then gets disinhibited to release a stimulatory, it's a whole mess that, you know, the nuance gets missed a lot in kind of the translation and research and what kind of gets out to the public. But it's really exciting to be able to dive into how these particular chemicals and how these particular pathways can get promoted or excited or inhibited on a very nuanced level versus just broadly kind of peppering the system.
Christa 39:08
So I'm looking to bring in DNA testing to my patients and part of the DNA testing is to look at neurotransmitters and to look at genetically what we are predisposed to, not only with brain health like Alzheimer's and things like that, but then neurotransmitters and maybe that would help guide and direct different therapies or allow them to understand why they perceive the world a certain way. Do you think that those are helpful? Or do you think that you know life experiences epigenetics kind of come into play in it, it can actually shift what we were born with.
Speaker 1 39:43
I think it can be helpful. genetics are kind of my third in the list of prioritization, right. So bloodwork and physical exam are kind of the presentation of the person there in their narrative, or the first to my try angulation process, genetics kind of comes in if the first two don't give me sufficient enough information to actually figure it out or play with the problem. Mostly because you know, when someone gets to a certain point in their life, their genes had been there for their whole life. And they're either compensating well enough to overcome internal deficits. Or they will have found that there's such a deficit from a genetic variation or a mutation that is going to impact their functionality and cause a problem way earlier to actually be pursued as an actual issue. So I don't think it's a, it's a bad idea or anything like that. But it can be very data overload for a lot of clients to see all the genetic information and not know really what to do with it. And it can also just kind of lead to an over prescription of tools that might remedy some of these things that might not actually have a manifestation, physiologically speaking, but as an overall arc, I would love to have kind of a neuro panel on people just to correlate from an intellectual perspective, not really from an interventional side. But to see you know, if someone has ADHD, you know, what do their dopaminergic neuron SNPs look like like the the D one receptors, the D two receptors, a and k k, like, all those different kinds of genes that correlate to the production of a protein that is then responsive to either the synthesis, degradation or transport of those neurotransmitters can certainly play a role in how they might present. But it's that's getting really in the granular detail of someone's case.
Christa 41:48
I agree, I primarily use the same bloodwork and symptoms and presentation, I think it can tell us a lot. I think it is interesting, though, when it comes to brain fog, and things like that, like and hormone replacement, let's say as we're aging, like what a detox pathways genetically look like can really help guide some of that stuff. So that some of the Yeah, the memory loss of the brain fog or things like that kind of ruling, ruling that out, but I just wondered from a specific neurotransmitter genetic, you know, because things do change. And I think the way we grew up whether you were raised in a, you know, loving home or an abusive home can really shift some of that epigenetically. Right. So yeah, I agree with a grain of salt, because that's just kind of from the get go where we were. Yeah, but how are we like presenting some of our genes is also important. Sure. So I think this has been an exceptional conversation. I thank you so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge. And I think to wrap it up, how did you What are some of the ways that you can help guide the listeners on burnout? Let's say like, you know, you're going going going, and what are some of the symptoms that you look at in yourself in patients for burnout, and then ways that you help people kind of work through that to prevent some of the manifestations that burnout can have on our physical body?
Speaker 1 43:07
Well, first and foremost, is being aware that burnout is probable, especially when people are on such a trajectory of progress, you kind of feel like it's gonna happen forever. And then, you know, something environmentally was shipped, there'll be a full moon or fucking a, like, something will just happen that's, you know, an outside event and throw things off. And that's enough for some people to think, you know, oh, man, what was that? Was that just an experience that was going to be fleeting and never going to happen again, and we're going to be like this for the rest of my life. And, and no, so just being aware and acknowledging that there's going to be troughs that are equivalent to peaks, and that you're going to have to go through some of those. And the ideal strategy going into one of those is to realize it's going to be temporary. And what can I do to mitigate the amount of time that I'm going to spend in this trough? What am I going to focus on, that's when having your personal mission values and beliefs and all those things stated. So you can go back and kind of pound your fist on it and say, these are, these are the things I'm about even though I'm not feeling it right now. These are still my drivers, this is still my Northstar. And so always having that identified as a way to kind of keep you honest with your trajectory, even when you're not feeling like you want to be on that trajectory.
Christa 44:30
Yeah, I think it is important to recognize that nothing lasts forever the good or the bad, like, you know, it is tough because being somebody with high goals and achieving you know, it's just go go go on some days, you just don't feel it and you're physically feeling some of the symptoms of anxiety or just overwhelm or heart palpitations or whatever it's presenting at us. But yeah, I
Speaker 1 44:54
think the last thing I'll say on that, too is identifying what is enough when Individual. Yeah, right. So having a qualification for enoughness is really important to identify because if you if you don't know what is enough, then you might actually sacrifice what you have a need for something you don't have and you don't need
Sheree 45:18
Yeah, every ghost we're constantly just chasing and chasing and chasing, trying to get to this level of enough when you're really not meeting that need within yourself and and I think the beautiful thing that you've shared and that we work on in any kind of therapy is really getting to the root of the issue having that emotional intelligence having that self awareness so that like you say, you know, when you've hit where enough is, and you can actually be in it and enjoy it and be present to it.
Unknown Speaker 45:48
And everything else is just gravy on top. Yeah.
Christa 45:54
This was amazing. Caleb, thank you so much for being here and for sharing your time with us and sharing part of just your never ending river of intelligence and information. I love it. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. And where can
Sheree 46:07
people find you? So
Speaker 1 46:08
I have a website design health.org Design health.org I have an Instagram for my personal self is at Caleb Greer FNP and then the practice has an Instagram which is dazzling health.
Sheree 46:26
Amazing. So definitely go check those out guys because I know I will be voting and looking and learning essentially
Christa 46:36
all of this all of this information. I love it. Thanks again.
Unknown Speaker 46:40
No thank you guys.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
