Sheree 0:00
I am so excited for this guest. You guys are going to love this topic, all of the nuggets, the wisdom, the absolute beautiful science that is brought on. And I cannot wait to dive into this episode. Today we're bringing on an amazing microbiologist research microbiologist, Koran. Now granted, I had the privilege of meeting each other in person when I was back in New Zealand. And I went to one of his seminars, and I was just blown away by the depth of knowledge that he has, and loved how much detail he went into. And I thought why not bring him on the podcast, so he can share this valuable insights with you. So Karan is a research microbiologist, and a health and wellness expert who aims to make complex information understandable to all. He has found that a number of successful health and supplement companies over the last 15 years, including co founding, and leading microbiome labs, this is a preeminent microbiome, therapeutics focused brand. among healthcare professionals. I myself use it with my clients day in day out. And I know Krista does, too, he has conducted and published several research studies and scientific journals, has published chapters and scientific textbooks and References Books, and has a global patent, a sought after speaker on human health. So I'm so so excited for our guests today, the wealth of knowledge that he brings is just unparalleled. So without further ado, I really want to introduce Ron, and I'm so excited that you are here. Do you mind sharing a little bit with us about your journey into the field, they'll let you introduce the field that you do? And how you really became interested in what you're doing?
Speaker 1 1:50
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me, it was a pleasure to get to meet you in person as well. So I'm so glad we got to find a time to get this, you know, podcast interview done. So you know, my field is in the world of microbiology. And I was from the beginning, a kid that was very, very curious about how the world around me works. And the harder it is to see touch or feel the thing, the more interested I became in it. So my biggest areas of interest in science were always in physics. And especially we look at quantum mechanics, and you know, the subatomic world, or microbiology and the world of microbes in these complex ecosystems, none of which you can touch, see or feel. But it controls everything, right. Just like subatomic particles control everything that happens around us. And in US microbes control everything that happens around us. And it's from a biological perspective. So So those two became the two primary fields that interested me, in the world of science, one of those fields requires a lot of mathematics and the other one doesn't. So that also became another another way of deciding what field to go into. And so I jumped into the world of microbiology. Now, one of the things I learned early on in the world of microbiology is that in research in therapeutics, and all that, that comes out of the world of microbiology, there's a lot of focus on pathogens, right, and pathogens and microbes that make you sick. But when it comes down to it, those only represent around point 1% Of all the microbes ever discovered. So 99.9% of the microbes are either beneficial or benign. And they almost never get any limelight, right, because we put a lot of focus on the things that make you sick. And so I started becoming interested more in that other 99.9%. And then the Human Microbiome Project kicked off Mac in 2007. And that was a perfect fit for me, because the whole purpose of that project was to start to understand and discover the other 99%, right, which is parts that affect us in so many ways and allow us to function the way we function. And don't make us sick. And in fact, if you really look at it, the best way to control the point 1% That makes us ill is to allow the 99.9% of flourish, right and anywhere that we hurt the 99.9% we allow the point 1% to flourish, right? So we see that in places that are over sterilized, we see that in our bodies, when we take antibiotics excessively when we use antimicrobials excessively, right? All of those are mechanics that allow the point 1% to flourish, and then that can cause disease and illness and so on. So for me, it became a perfect fit of the things that drive my curiosity in the world of science and then blend that with this frontier of understanding how the human being actually functions by understanding the ecosystem that runs us. Right so that's, that's that's how I jumped in and why I'm so passionate dedicated with this world. Live microbiology and microbiome science.
Christa 5:02
I love all of that explanation. And I have a quick question your take on, you know, looking at gut microbiome studies. And I've used your product. And we'll talk a little bit more about your products. But I've used that for years with my patients and personally love them love that they're spore based. We can talk about all of that as well. But what's your take on proliferating the 99%? versus putting somebody on an anti microbial? And have you seen people really shift in a positive way without even having to use any anti microbials? For like, let's say, dysbiotic? You know, overgrowth?
Speaker 1 5:38
Yeah. And that's a really important question, right? Because the initial knee jerk response to understanding that there's dysbiosis, dysbiosis, being an imbalance of microbes in somebody's got for, let's say, right, we know that there's probably an elevation of unfavorable organisms and a reduction in favorable organisms. So you go, Okay, there's an imbalance there, the knee jerk reaction is to hit it with something that kills things, with the hope that you're killing the bad stuff. And then hopefully, you will regenerate the good stuff, right. But the problem is, that's just not how ecosystems work. And that's just not how antimicrobials or antibiotics work. And one of the things I started presenting to functional medicine doctors and all that, you know, 15 years ago, even was, the use of antimicrobials in that way is no different than an allopathic 's use of an antibiotic. It's just a natural version of an antibiotic. But the concept is the same, that we're just going to kill stuff. And the assumption is, we're killing the bad stuff, but you're actually killing everything. Right. And in fact, depending on which one you use, each round of killing can actually make it harder for the 99.9% to come back in a predominant way and make the environment even easier for the point 1% to come back, right. So just one example of that. So let's take a broad spectrum antibiotic or antimicrobial in the gut. Now one of the ways in which the 99.9% controls of point 1% is through acidification of the digestive tract, right. So certainly the stomach acid controls a lot of organisms, but then the small bowel is also relatively acidic compared to the large bowel, for example. So there's the PAH can go anywhere from the high threes to six ish by the end of the small bowel, right. So there's a good portion of small bowel that is really relatively acidic. And that's a very important feature because it controls the growth of dysbiotic organisms in the small bowel. Now, that acid that acidifies, the small bowels produced by lactic acid bacteria, right, a lot of the beneficial bacteria produce high amounts of lactic acid, they keep the pH low. So now the pH being low controls the growth of things like fungus, and, you know, mold and so on. And then of course, pathogenic organisms as well. Now you hit the entire small bowel with an antimicrobial or an antibiotic, a broad spectrum, one, and all of those microbes die down, which means you're no longer producing lactic acid is efficiently, which means a pH of the small ball goes up. Now with an increased pH, it actually allows the pathogen of the fungus to come back faster, because that's a better growth environment for them than the lower pH environment, right. So multiple rounds of that will actually change the ecosystem quite a bit. Now, that's not to say that there's never a condition where you need an antimicrobial never condition, you need an antibiotic, they certainly are. But the general concept of fixing dysbiosis by bombarding it with things that disrupt the ecosystem significantly, is a strategy that I've never seen work well, over time. You know, you might get temporary relief, you know, in the case of SIBO, for example, you hit your gut with a bunch of antimicrobials, you might get temporary relief, just like they feel a little bit better after 10 days or Rifaximin. Right? But then it comes back. And the reason it's come comes back is because we're not solving the root cause issue. So to me, the best way to go after an ecosystem disruption, when it comes to microbial ecosystems is descended microbes that know how to adjust it without completely destroying the system. Wow,
Christa 9:20
I'm about to switch up my entire gut protocol, just nation because yeah, that's really, really amazing insight. And I liked that point of view of like, Yeah, I mean, anti microbials aren't any different from antibiotics that we get?
Unknown Speaker 9:34
Yeah, just natural forms of them. Right. So
Christa 9:36
yeah, yeah. So along those lines, and if I may ask one more question with in terms of like the health of the gut, can you describe kind of what leaky gut is to our audience and like how these and maybe within this question, answer what is a spore based probiotic and what's the difference between that and how does it impact the intestine and how can it help with If something like leaky gut,
Speaker 1 10:01
yeah, absolutely. So leaky gut is something that's really important for every consumer to start to understand because it's a key part of empowering yourself with with improving our health, right? Because we cannot overstate both the prevalence of leaky gut and then also how much of a driver of chronic disease it is, right. So in fact, that was a two time 2015 publication in Journal of frontiers of immunology. That was a meta analysis. So it was a study of lots of studies on the topic. And they basically concluded that intestinal permeability, in this case driven by stress, and we could talk about how stress drives intestinal permeability, but the resulting intestinal permeability, or leaky gut is the number one cause of morbidity and mortality worldwide, right? It's the number one killer worldwide among non communicable diseases. So communicable diseases are ones that we can give to each other, you know, viruses, bacteria, and so on. But outside of those, when we're talking about chronic illnesses, leaky gut was the number one driver worldwide. So the vast majority of people listening if they're dealing with a chronic illness, leaky gut is likely at the root cause or a root driver of that illness. If it's not the root driver of the illness itself. It's one of the key reasons why you're not getting better from the illness, right? Because it just creates an environment where illness can persist, because leaky gut also is the number one cause of chronic low grade inflammation. And inflammation, we all know is the bed in which most of these illnesses lie, right. So let's talk about what that is. So leaky gut is a very interesting phenomenon. Because, you know, the name suggests that the gut is leaking in things that you may not want it to. And that's exactly what's happening. But the complication is that the gut is supposed to be selectively leaking, right? Because that's, of course, where we absorb all our nutrients, we digest stuff, food that's coming in, and we need to absorb those nutrients through this gut lining, it has to pass through the mucosa than the intestinal epithelium, make its way into circulation, about 85% of everything that comes in, will go through what we call portal circulation to the liver, the liver helps decide whether or not these things are good or bad, and then sends it out to the rest of the body. Now, that is the selective permeable component to it, which means that the system cannot be simply a barrier, right? So leaky gut is also called a barrier dysfunction. But it's not a barrier, like our skin is a barrier our skin is a real barrier in that it's like a brick wall to stop things from leaking through and stop things from going out, right. So on our skin, we've got multiple layers of cells, right, we've got dozens upon dozens of layers of cells, we've got the epidermis with a lot of dead cells that act as like sandbags to block things. Then we've got the dermis, lots of living, active cells blocking things, we've got the ceremony layer, which is a big fatty acid layer that blocks and acts as a blocker, something that prevents permeability in the skin. So the skin is truly designed as a barrier. The gut lining is one cell thick, right, and it's the single cells that are sitting shoulder to shoulder acting as a barrier system. And in between them, they have these proteins called Platon and offloading proteins 40 or so proteins that allow them to open up when they need to, and then allow them to cinch close when they shouldn't be open. Right. So it's a much more dynamic system than something like your skin. So the intestinal barrier is supposed to be selectively permeable, where food and nutrients need to be able to go through, but microbes, toxins and all of their byproducts shouldn't be going through. Now, how does the body dictate what goes through and what doesn't go through? Right? And how does that get dismantled? So if you think about your intestinal barrier, if you will, there's two sections to it. There's the mucosal layer, so it's a thick mucus layer, and then that sits on top of the intestinal epithelium, which are the single cell layer of intestinal cells that acts as the final stop before something moves into circulation. Right. So the mucosal system, some really critical things are supposed to happen there. Number one, it slows down the transit of things through the lining of the gut, right. So the top part of the mucosal layer is a more liquid like layer, where most of the bacteria live. The bottom part of the mucous, the inner part of the mucosal membrane is a thicker jello like structure, so things can move through the top part, and then they get dramatically slowed down moving through the inner part. Now, the inner part is constantly monitored by your immune system. And it's also monitored by the intestinal cells that have stuff coming at it from the mucosa. Right? Once it's in the inner part of the mucosa. Your immune system should have already decided if this is a thing that should be allowed to go through or This is a thing that needs to be stopped and neutralized in that mucosa. Right. So that's where the decision has to be made. If that decision has failed to be made, then that thing is going to make its way through one way or the other, right? It's either going to pass through the intestinal cells or in between the intestinal cells. So that decision happens in the mucosa. And that's a very important place to prevent things from going through that shouldn't be going through. Now, here's where it falls apart, right? Because part of the way your immune system makes decisions as to what should go through that mucosal lining or not, is communication with the microbes that first saw the thing in the top layer, right? So your commensal microbes are alert your immune system as to what's coming through. And in fact, he goes as far as tagging things, that should be problematic, so your immune system can pay attention to them. Right. So imagine that your top layer of your mucosa is a checkpoint. And you've got all of these resident microbes that are acting as a neighborhood watch, keeping an eye on everything that's coming through. And certain microbes within that neighborhood watch are really good at either a directly neutralizing things that are that shouldn't be coming through, like viruses, other pathogenic bacteria, toxins, and so on, or tagging those things to let your immune system know that something's coming through that should be neutralized, and then your immune system can go after it. Now your immune system also has cells called dendritic cells that can reach across a lining reach across the intestinal epithelium and have little tentacles up in that mucosal area to constantly survey what's coming through, and then create an appropriate response. But a lot of that intelligence for the immune system to know what should come through and what shouldn't come from the microbes in the microbiome, right. So if you don't have adequate communication between the microbes in the microbiome, and your immune system, a lot of things will slip through that shouldn't be slipping through, right. The other thing that occurs, which then dismantles this whole system, is when you start to lose the number of commensal resident organisms that are working with immune system, you start to get an increase in dysbiotic organisms. These are the ones that don't want to work with the immune system, because they themselves want to proliferate and produce toxins and create havoc in your system, those organisms also start to eat away that inner part of your mucosal system, the one that slows everything down and provides a last chance for the immune system to neutralize things, it eats away that internal part of that mucosa, thereby, not allowing that stuff to slow down, allowing stuff to move right through and past intestinal epithelium. Right. So the combination of those two things a loss of communication between their commensal bacteria and your immune system, so that loss of intelligence for the immune system, and the loss of opportunity by eating away that inner mucosal layer, those are the two big things that occur that start dismantling that selective barrier. Right, now what starts to happen is as more and more unwanted things leak through, the immune system starts to detect that happening. And because the immune system now is freaked out that there's a massive barrage of things coming through, it starts recruiting more immune cells to the region. And most of these immune cells, it recruits elicit an inflammatory response to try to protect the body, that inflammatory response ends up damaging the intestinal cells themselves, and the mucosal cells, causing big gaps in the system and causing lots of inflammation in the lining of the gut. So eventually, it's the immune system itself, that damages the lining of the gut and causing more and more havoc. But it starts with that imbalance, it starts with that loss of microbes that communicate with immune system, maintain that mucosal structure and an overgrowth of organisms that don't communicate with the immune system and eat away that because the structure, right and then eventually you get leakiness in the gut. Now, keep in mind, the gut is like 25 feet, right? So you could have leakiness in a five inch section of the gut, and not feel anything from it forever. But for every inch that becomes leaky, it actually pushes the inch next to it to get more leaky. So over time, what happens is a few inches of leaky intestines start to become few feet, and then becomes 10 feet, 12 feet, and then all sudden, you've got a very, very profound illness from that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Wow,
Christa 19:36
that was a beautiful picture that you just painted.
Speaker 1 19:38
Thank you. And that, you know, illustrates the importance of that relationship between the microbes and the immune system, right. This is how we evolved that the immune system is such a fascinating part of our body because it's the one and only component of our body that we produce that's purely there to protect us, right? We make all our own immune cells, all the immune cells are made in the bone marrow. And in the thymus between the two, we cover all the immune cells in the body. What's interesting about the immune cells is that they're made with all of this capability, but they have no intelligence, right? So think of your immune system as an army with tanks and guns and every kind of weapon you can think of, but no general, right? The Army has no direction, it doesn't know who the enemy is, who isn't the enemy, who to attack, who not to attack, it gets all of that information from the microbes that it interacts with. It's the microbes that are the front facing, telling the immune system, what the world looks like, telling the immune system whose friend whose foe, right telling the immune system, what's toxic, what's not toxic. And so you see the breakdown of communication between the microbes and the immune system, both in conditions where people have lots of inflammation, sensitivities and all that, but also in conditions where people have an overactive immune system, right, that's attacking everything, versus being tolerant of things. So that's allergies, asthma, autoimmune diseases, and so on. Right. So in all of those conditions, it's a dismantling of the communication between the microbes and the immune system.
Sheree 21:15
You explain that so well. And I know that leaky gut is something that is becoming more and more popular to understand, and people are starting to investigate it a lot more. It's something that I know both Chris and I work with a lot of clients with. And I'm really curious if you can explain a little bit more about how this starts to turn in, like how leaky gut can start to be linked to those food intolerances, because one of the biggest issues I see is people are either misdiagnosed with IBS, right, that kind of blanket term. And really, it's like a SIBO, or leaky gut type picture or combination of both. And then they're constantly consumed by this idea that certain foods are really what's driving this inflammation, and really what's causing the issue. But if you could talk to that a little bit, and the difference between that and through allergies. Yeah,
Speaker 1 22:01
yeah, absolutely. And that's a really important topic too, because one of the other problems so so you know, when I got into the world of functional medicine, I saw two big problems in how practitioners were approaching gut health issues. Number one was the overuse of antimicrobials with the idea of just killing the bad stuff, and then the good stuff will show up. And number two, was this elimination of foods, right? Because foods became the culprit here. And that's not actually the case. Because humans are omnivores, right. We're very unique in our capability, because we have a significant capability of eating a huge variety of foods. If you look at my friend behind me, right, the lion is beautiful, majestic animal, this poor lion is what we call an obligate carnivore. Right, which means that this lion can't eat anything but meat and organs from other animals. So if there's a drought, and its primary target the will to beasts, for example, which is a herbivore, which cannot eat, other animals start to die, because there's no plants or to eat, the lion will suffer, the lion can't just go and start digging for roots and tubers, and eating insects and eating berries off the trees, right, it'll die, it cannot eat those things. It has to eat meat. And so humans survived and moved up the evolutionary ladder and the food chain because we are omnivores. You know, if there is no meat around, we can eat seeds and nuts and roots and tubers and berries. If there if there isn't meat, and berries and nuts and seeds, we can eat insects, right, we can do a lot of things. And that allows us to be extremely capable of adapting to almost any ecosystem, right? There's a reason why you have certain animals that live in certain ecosystems and not others, right? Despite the fact that this wine is called the king of the jungle. He doesn't live in a jungle, right? There's no lions in the jungle. He lives in the savanna. Right. And there's a reason why polar bears only found in certain regions and seals only found in certain regions. And, you know, humans are found in every corner of the globe, and we can live in almost every corner of the globe. Because of our adaptability right now, why are we so adaptable because of the diversity of our ecosystem in our gut, right? And this is a very important part of our evolutionary development. When we you know, we were our closest genetic closest relative is chimpanzee, right? We are 99% similar to a chimpanzee from our own genetics, right? So imagine the vast differences between a human being Homosapien and a chimpanzee, all of that is accounted for in 1% of our genetics, right? But what's so interesting about that, even though we are 99%, similar to the chimpanzee in terms of our genetics, our genes, we are not even close to a chimpanzee when it comes So our microbiome, right, our microbiome is maybe 1%, similar to a chimpanzee. As it turns out, our microbiome is actually more similar to that of a baboon than it is to a chimpanzee. Now, why is that? Well, baboons came down from the trees and became nomadic animals. They travel in tribes, and they walked across the land. So they started diversifying their diet by eating animals. They eat fruit, state seeds and nuts. They dig for termites, they eat all kinds of things. And they're also nomadic, which means that they travel, right, so they developed an omnivorous like microbiome. So if you look at all the primates out there, our microbiomes is most similar to that of the baboon, yet our genetics are the most similar to that of a chimpanzee, right? So it's our microbiome that dictates how we function. So we are an omnivore. Right, it doesn't matter what camp you're in, and people get very tribalistic about their diets. And it's, it's kind of crazy, but you know, they're like, I'm a lion. Dieter, I'm a vegan. I'm a there's some of that you're a human, you're an omnivore. Right. That's what you are. So let's go back to your original question about food and all of this. So I think it becomes really overall damaging to long term gut health when we narrow down our food choices, right? And we we villainize foods. Now, there's lots of people that have made, you know, a great living and a great name on villainizing, certain types of foods, right? lectins, for example, oh, you cannot eat lectins you can eat, you know, kale, you can eat this, you can eat that, that kind of the I can't remember the word is. But if you come out against the norms, you get a lot of attention online, right? And so, but those things to me are not so productive, because we should be able to eat all those things. We have a system designed for all of those things. And if the less of diversity that we have in our diet, the less diversity we'll have in our microbiome. And the less diversity we have in our microbiome, the more susceptible we are to illness, and we live a shorter life. Right? That diversity of your microbiome is one of the best predictors of longevity, and resilience against disease risk. And one of the biggest impacts on the diversity of your microbiome is how diverse your diet is. Right? So we have to start going back towards having a diversity in our diet. And so and, you know, talking about the food sensitivity issue, where does that come from? Right, that was your original part of the question. So like I described as that important communication between microbes, and the immune system, right, and when you have what we call oral tolerance, which means that your body is tolerant to the things that needs to be tolerant to like food and food components, right, what tends to happen is you eat food, and you have a healthy diverse microbiome, you've got a good mucosal system, both the top layer and the inner layer, you've got a tight junctions that can open up for the right things, and essentially up close when the wrong things are coming in. If you have that system in place, what happens is all the food particles that get released into your digestive tract from digestion, get coated with things like Secretory IgA, or your microbes initiate a signaling that you should be tolerant of these things coming through, right? There comes a food particle, your micro goes, Hey, immune system, you don't need to attack that. That's something we need. That's something your body needs, don't attack it, right. So your immune system builds a tolerance against it. As that communication starts to dismantle because the microbiome is starting to dismantle what starts to happen is your immune system responds by just attacking everything, it can't tell if it's microbes coming through its toxins coming through, if it's food coming through, it doesn't have the communication from the microbiome in order to understand what to attack what not to attack, so attacks everything, right, including all the food particles that come through. This is how you ended up developing sensitivities. Right, there's a second way. And this is called a bystander effect. This is also a way in which you develop autoimmune diseases, right? So I mentioned that when you dismantle the mucosa and you dismantle the communication between the microbes, and the immune system, stuff starts to leak through too fast and in too high volume, your immune system responds to the presence of those things by eliciting a lot of inflammatory response in that area. Right? What happens when you elicit an inflammatory responses, you get the cells that come in, like your dendritic cells, macrophages, natural killer cells, that carpet bomb the area because they don't know what they're going after? They just know there's a problem in the area. They're carpet bombing everything right? So your own cells get damaged, you start releasing components and proteins from your own cell, your food molecules that come in start to become part of the melee of things that are occurring there. Then the second phase of your immune system shows up called the adaptive immune system. These are your T cells and B cells. They show up to the region and they go okay, what was called In the problem, we need to figure that out your antigen presenting cells or dendritic cells or macrophages start grabbing molecules from the region and presenting it to the T cells and B cells as if those were the culprits right? Now, they do that. And sometimes they accidentally present your own tissue. And sometimes they accidentally present a food particle as being the culprit, they're just grabbing stuff out of this, you know, melee, and what's supposed to happen is there's a regulatory component of your T cells that are supposed to look at what the antigen cells are presenting and go, that's not it, let's dampen that response, right? Oh, that's not it, you're presenting your own tissue, let's stop presenting that, oh, that's a piece of food, you don't need to present that stop doing that. The problem is that regulatory component is also dependent on a diverse microbiome. So if your microbiome is dismantled, you don't have the communication with your immune system, you're losing that mucosal layer, you're getting too much infiltration of inflammatory cells in that region, you're also seeing a lowered present representation of the regulatory T cells. So now you can have a higher chance of misrepresentation to the T cells or B cells of what the culprit is, right. So now from eating food alone, you may develop a immunological response to your own tissue in your own gut, that can lead to Crohn's, colitis, micro colitis, and so on, right, these are conditions in which your own immune cells are attacking your lining of your gut, right? Or it can be as simple as food sensitivities and all that, where food particles are triggering an immunological response. And like you said, it's not an allergic response. It's not an IGE response, which is a hypersensitivity response. It's actually a bystander effect, similar to an autoimmune response, right, where you've got an immune system that's now attacking the wrong thing. It also doesn't mean that avoiding that thing is the way of resolving that issue. Right? That's the part that's really important to note. It's just like, if you have an autoimmune disease, right? If you have an autoimmune disease to the lining of your gut, it doesn't actually help the host just to cut the gut out, which is what they do, right? If you've got Crohn's and Colitis, and it's progressing, one of the solutions, so it is just let's just cut the colon out. Right? That doesn't solve the actual problem, right? And so no different than like if you have an autoimmune disease on your skin, right, which is eczema, psoriasis, it doesn't make sense to cut the skin out and eliminate it, right? It's same thing with the food sensitivities, right? Unless it's a true IGE response, a true hypersensitivity response. It's not the fault of the food. And even in the case of IgG response, it's not the fault of the food. It's the fault of the immune system and the microbiome.
Christa 32:50
Yeah, I liked how you talked about one because I'm also a big proponent of a variety of foods. And I have seen people who go on the keto diet, and then look at, you know, a GI map or whatever gut test and see that their microbiome has completely shifted, because they have restricted so much of what they're eating. And you know, I also feel that them too, hey, let's check a food sensitivity. And let's remove all of that in hopes of healing the gut when in fact, it was really restrictive and caused a lot of stress, I think in patients to do that. I want to talk a little bit about the immune system. And you know, when you mentioned the secretory IgA, I see some that are very, very low, some that are extremely, extremely high. And really what it sounds like is the root cause of that is just a lack of commensal bacteria that's actually speaking to that. And I know you've got multiple products and one of your products does include an IgG support doesn't it does. Yeah. I want you to speak to that product and how it differs from maybe a spore based broader What are you doing there with a product differentiation
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